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Group Therapy Thursday – Sex, Marriage, Moving, and Pee-Sticks!

8 Sep

I’ve gotten some awesome messages from you guys. Thanks so much for participating! I couldn’t post all of them today, but I promise that if it’s not posted today, it’ll make it on here soon!

So are we ready…? Here we go (this is exciting)!

Dear Mo and the Group,

Sex is on my mind a lot lately!  The problem is this: I was married for a long time and after getting divorced I hit it off with the first guy I dated and he now lives with me.  But lately I find myself attracted to many men and women and I wish I had dated more before getting into another committed relationship.  I’ve had sex with just two men and although it’s been pretty satisfying I desire more sexual experiences.  My suggestion of having an open relationship did not go over well and I don’t think I want to break up with my sweet boyfriend just to have casual sex.

So tell me, am I missing out on anything by having had so few sexual partners?  How have others handled these feelings?

Thanks for your help,

Practically a Virgin

Hi PAV!

I personally was a bit of a slut in high school, so I can’t talk from experience here (I’ll leave that to everyone in the comments who has been in your shoes). But do allow me to make a suggestion:

Threesome! Seriously. If you feel like you may be a bit into girls, then you should bring up the option of doing a threesome with your partner and another girl. No man in his right mind would say no to that. This way you get to be sexually adventurous without actually opening up the relationship. I’m going to pull from the Dan Savage handbook here and suggest that if you decide to do that, set some very clear boundaries ahead of time for both you and your boyfriend, and make sure that you treat the woman who you bring into the “circle” with you guys with respect, and of course, be very safe about everything.  As Mr. Savage says, monogamy shouldn’t be the death of sexual adventure. I have plenty more to say about this, but I’ll leave it here for now and let the group chime in, and maybe add more later in the comments!

Dear Mo and The Group,

If you have to move in 9 months-ish (husband is finishing college, you never intended to stay where you are now forever), and you’ve narrowed the choice down to three awesome cities, all of which have pros and cons, how do you make the final decision?

This one is from Kristen. I emailed her and asked her for some more info, specifically, what ARE the pros and cons, and what cities are they considering?

Denver/Boulder, CO

Pros: Close to family, easy to move (already live in the same state), friends there, great snowboarding, affordable

Cons: The city itself is the least favorite city, not near the ocean

Seattle, WA

Pros: Beautiful, near water, husband and I both have our best friends there, moderate cost

Cons: Rainy and gray in the winter, has both snowboarding and surfing but both are a drive and not the best quality

Santa Barbara, CA

Pros: Beautiful, beach lifestyle (I’ve lived there before and felt like I was on vacation the whole time), surfing

Cons: Expensive, lived there with my brother who died and afraid I might be sad going back there, have friends there but not as close of friends as in other places

Before I give my take, it’s important to note that Kristen, after a heck of a lot of heartbreak, is 9 weeks pregnant. With twins! Yay Kristen! I’m going to take that into consideration in my answer.

Off the top of my head, I think Santa Barbara should be knocked off the list. Considering this economy, price is definitely an issue, and I think it may be hard on you because of your history there. Not to mention the lack of family/friends.

Which brings me to my real insight here: especially once those little ones come, you’re going to want to have a support system around you. I know you’re only 9 weeks and you have the IF paranoia, so you don’t even want to look that far ahead. But you should, especially since you need to make the decision soon.

I think beyond beaches and weather, you need to have people who you love close to you. Whether it’s close friends or family is not necessarily important, but whichever it is, it will be a huge help.

I’ve heard often that after a woman gives birth, no matter what her age or circumstance, she will instinctively “want her mommy.” I know you’re close with your mom, and you should definitely tick that  box in favor of CO.

But – Seattle is awesome, and it seems like you have a support system there as well.

So I would suggest keeping that in mind, and also thinking about where you want your kids to grow up. Do you want them to be in a family atmosphere? Do you want them to grow up in a really cool city, but farther away from their grandparents? Which is more important to you?

Guys – what do you think? I know a couple of you have lived in these cities – perhaps you have some extra insight?

Hey Mo and the Group,

My husband and I have been together (including dating years) for 8 years.  We have been having difficulties in our intimate area of our life for, well, as long as we have been having sex, but we always felt like we had enough other great things going on that it wasn’t everything.  We have been struggling with IF for 2 years, and had a miscarriage last fall.  For work reasons, we have been apart for about 2 months.  A little over a week ago, he called to tell me he had slept with another woman, a mutual friend who he has known since high school.

   After spending about 48 hours vacillating between hysterics and catatonics, I’ve come to a place of contemplation (aka over-analysis).  He is incredibly apologetic, and been very straight forward about the situation.  I do want to work on this… but I also realize that just because we try to fix this, doesn’t mean we can.

   So after driving three days he is back, and things are a mix of familiar/normal and awkward/strange, trying to figure out what our relationship looks like.  Doing our best to be honest about what we both want and need.  While we plan to pursue counseling, I think we are both a little lost as to what we should do (or not do) right now, and that is where I really just need as much input as I can get.   Specifically I’m trying to wrap my head around the concepts of “love” and “forgiveness” in such an unexpected situation.  How does a couple go about rebuilding the trust?  How do I know we are better, as opposed to me just wishing we were (aka denial)?  How do I know if/when it’s over, and I should stop trying?

Bleeding Tulip

Hi there BT!

Let me start from the end, I don’t think there is anything specific you need to do, except listen to your gut. Do you want him around right now or do you need some time alone? There’s nothing wrong with giving yourself some space. I don’t know if you guys have the capacity to re-build trust, and I don’t know where you would start rebuilding it. I do know that this type of brain-spinny craziness is not good for either of you. I’ve never been in your situation, and I’m sorry you’re going through this. All I know is this: I’ve always trusted my gut. For example, I was in a relationship for 2 years, we were living together, and the second the guy started talking marriage my gut told me to break up with him. I was all alone in a city with no family around and no money, but I moved out, and it was the best decision I ever made. We’re still friends, I introduced him to his wife, and I have Shmerson. I didn’t roll it around in my head, I just listened to my gut. Your gut will never fail you as long as you listen to it without judgement.

Now –  allow me to dwell on something in the first paragraph, that I think is the most telling: You guys have been together since you were 18. And your sex life has always been lacking.

I find this worrisome. I’m not saying great sex is the cornerstone of a marriage, but you guys were 18! That’s hormone city! If it wasn’t hot and heavy then, well, I’m not sure if it really can be.

I know your IF struggle is clouding this, and you’ve got major case of the baby-crazies, which is most likely clouding your objective judgement. I want you to put the baby-crazies aside for a minute ok? Rewind to two years ago before the IF kicked in. If this had happened two years ago, what would you have done?

I think that should be your true answer. Have an honest conversation with yourself about your needs beyond the baby issue. Just put yourself in those 24-year-old shoes and see where they lead you.

Those are my two cents. What do you guys think?

Dear Mo and The Group,

Do other women in the IF/Loss community hoard their pee-sticks?  I’m not talking about stockpiling pregnancy tests for testing, or keeping your positive tests.  I’m talking about keeping every negative test I’ve taken.  They are stashed in the bottom of a drawer. I don’t understand why I do this, but I do.  Nor do I go back and look at them afterwards.  

~Future TLC Special In the Making

Hmmm… Interesting one. First of all, yes, reading HPT’s after the designated time is a really bad idea, so it’s good you don’t do that. I don’t necessarily hoard my BFN’s, but there was a time that I did hoard a couple, and look at them with a serious case of the bitter. They were a good trigger if I needed a good long cry. However, three losses in, I no longer do that. I don’t think it’s weird though. My guess is it happens more often than you’d think.

Any IFer’s out there need their own TLC special as well? “Pee-stick Hoarders – buried alive!” No, wait “Pee-ntervention!” No, that’s Bravo. “Kate plus 8 (thousand pee sticks)!” “Extreme Peesticking!”

I could go on forever. But I won’t. Thank you folks, don’t forget to tip your servers!

That’s all for today! I know there’s plenty of fodder out there for discussion, so comment away!

You guys sent in some awesome questions. Sorry that I couldn’t get to all of them – but keep them coming!

If you want to take part in next week’s Group Therapy Thursday, please head over to the launch post and fill out the handy-dandy form.

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19 Responses to “Group Therapy Thursday – Sex, Marriage, Moving, and Pee-Sticks!”

  1. eggsinarow September 8, 2011 at 23:36 #

    OMG! There is so much good here. I only have a second…so I will comment on the easiest first. My name is Eggs and yes, I hoard pee sticks. Mostly because I’ve NEVER HAD ONE SINGLE POSITIVE OVULATION. So if and when I get a plus sign/happy face/whatever, I think I will be able to move on. But good lord is it gross. I actually mentioned my pee stick issue in my post today! More later…love you MO! Good job!

  2. slcurwin September 9, 2011 at 00:36 #

    lol, Eggs, you need to get rid of those pee sticks. Aside from the giggle it gave me (I love quirky) you’re only going to be looking back and seeing this growing pile of negative. It pulls a lot of focus to the negative and is probably going to increase the “doom and gloom” until you’re not really seeing the positive and hope. Did I just repeat myself a lot? I know that when I had my big ol’ snap, I’d been so consumed with the crap going on (or lack of going on) that I’m now afraid to focus on TTC at all thinking I may go back to that dark place.

  3. slcurwin September 9, 2011 at 01:08 #

    What a way to piss myself off, I just deleted a big response accidentally.
    PAV- you’d think I’d say this anonymously but, mah, who cares I guess. I’ve always been attracted to women (kinda the running joke among my friends…not that it terribly humorous…maybe it’s more from the obsession with breasts I have?) yet I’ve always dated men. I think it has more to do with never finding a woman that I liked that liked me back. I’m going to have to slightly disagree with Mo here. Threesomes I’m sure are fantastic, if you are not like me and would end up feeling strange and probably go off to get a sandwich. I’m not shy by any stretch, but I wouldn’t know what to focus on and that would likely kill the mood for me. Sorry, that wasn’t the argument. I’m going to lay bets here that if you do have a threesome with this guy you are with, it’s just going to fall through. I think it’s a bad idea for a serious relationship because you’ll be done and he’ll want to keep it up, other way around, or someone will develop feelings for someone they weren’t “supposed to”. Someone always seems to get hurt there if there are strong feelings in the mix.
    I’m just guessing here that if you are wanting to venture out, then things aren’t enough to do the trick long run. It could just be the general desires of being human and all but… And with him or not, if you do make the decision to venture into the world of women…they are very soft 🙂

    • Mo September 9, 2011 at 01:22 #

      SLC makes a good enough point, but I’m not sure I agree. I think that if a relationship is solid, and enough boundaries are set, a threesome could be a great way to spice things up a bit. I think no matter what you choose to do though, my point was that pent up sexual frustration is definitely not a good way to go, especially if you’re in it for the long haul.

      • slcurwin September 9, 2011 at 01:45 #

        See, she’s less cynical than me. 😛

  4. Elphaba September 9, 2011 at 02:00 #

    I didn’t keep HPTs but I kept an entire drawer full of OPKs. And I looked at them all the time. I was almost six months pregnant before I finally made myself throw them out! And I had to MAKE myself do it.

  5. jjiraffe September 9, 2011 at 05:41 #

    This is such a great idea. LOVE it. Mo, you’re a regular Adam Corolla. Or someone you like that’s younger who gives advice.

    I can address the where to live one, I think. I went to college in SB and while it is a great place to go to college or be rich and retired, it’s hard for families. I have relatives who live there and employment is really rough: only a few big companies/the university out there for employment and the cost of living is astronomical.

    Living near family is great: IF they are supportive and will help you with childcare. And don’t be afraid to ask ahead of time if they are or aren’t willing to help. If neither of those things are on offer, it doesn’t matter where you live. Trust me on this one. And congrats on twins! I have three year old twins 🙂

  6. Peach September 9, 2011 at 06:35 #

    @kristen
    i LOVE seattle. i have lived in NYC, Portland, OR and Nice, Fr and seattle has been my favorite. yes, the winters can be dreary, but if you live in a good neighborhood and go into the city for activities, i find it quite pleasant. that place is truly spectacular. the water, the mountains, but still a proper size city.
    good luck with your decision!

  7. alexmmr September 9, 2011 at 07:44 #

    Yay! I’m glad the group is allowed to comment because I love giving advice that nobody asked me for!

    PAV – Spend some time hanging around the polyamorous community. They can often be found at various pagan events. I’m not saying go that route yourself if you and your partner don’t want to, but it will teach you a lot. I did a play and the majority of the people in the theater group were polyamorous so I spent quite a bit of time hanging out in that crowd. Hubby and I are monogamous, but having crushes on others and others having crushes on me and the fact that there was a hint of risk because being married did not mean that sex was completely off the table within that peer group, well, it heightened my friskiness level which I took home to my man. And I learned a few new tricks! And if you decide to experiment outside of your normal sexual comfort level, there will be a whole group of people that you’ve gotten to know within that community that will likely jump on the chance to experiment with you. They can also tell you what a pain in the butt it can be juggling more than one relationship at a time.

    Kristin – I live in Seattle. I brought my husband here from Boston. I’ve also lived in Toronto, and Long Island. I chose here partially because I have family here (as does my husband) but objectively, can’t find any place better. If you want ocean, there it is. If you want a mountain, there it is. If you want farming fields, an hours drive and there it is. One of the good things is that with Microsoft, Boeing, Amazon, etc etc, jobs here are usually more plentiful than other parts of the country. And all of Bill Gates and his cohorts tax money goes into the state so the quality of life here is pretty darned good. Temperatures are moderate so you’re never dying of heat or freezing your ass off. Three snowflakes hit the ground and no one expects you to get to work that day. We don’t get hit with natural disasters, like, at all. The population is generally highly educated. And various conferences (like geeky conventions, or whatever kind of gathering you might want like American Idol auditions or something) tend to happen here often.

    Bleeding Tulip – I don’t think all is lost here. It’s one hell of a betrayal and getting beyond it isn’t going to be easy and you may ultimately fail to do so, but in your situation, it seems like something to try. What has changed in your relationship shortly before this happened? If he was never tempted to stray before, what has changed to make him unable to resist this time? Has sex become about IF rather than sex and relationship? Did he get off on being desired as a man when at home he’s feeling like it’s a responsibility? These are questions for him of course. The fact that this is the first time, and he couldn’t help but to tell you the moment it happened, that tells me that it was some desperate, flailing attempt to gain something he’s missing and not something that will become a normal behavior. Mostly, be honest about how long it takes you to get beyond it. It’s probably going to feel like you’re angry/betrayed a whole lot longer than you want to be, but that’s ok.

    Pee stick hoarder – sorry, I’ve got no advice for you. It never occurred to me to keep any sticks other than the very few positives I’ve seen in my life.

    • Mo September 9, 2011 at 13:39 #

      Alex – fantastic points! Thank you!

    • BleedingTulip September 9, 2011 at 17:01 #

      Thanks for the thoughts Alex! Well, I was trying to keeping things succinct for spacing reasons, but after a LOT of talking (including a long day with a counselor yesterday) I would say it was a situation of being really lonely, having someone who you know really well and feel safe with, and alcohol.
      For myself, sex had become all about iF, so that even when we had sex that was not supposed to be for TTC, I couldn’t help but be thinking about it.
      Ironically, perhaps similarly to what slcurwin, I too have found women attractive and we have had conversations about a threesome or something to spice the relationship up in the past year. (I too should probably say this anonymously but I’m banking that nobody IRL has followed me over here…) but part of what I have always wanted to try (besides women) would be some light kink-type-stuff that my husband has always shot down. The silver lining to this whole crappy situation is that it got us to a place where we are finally being REALLY honest about our fantasies/desires etc which I never really thought we would be able to do.
      So between that and having friends in the polyamerous community (that I introduced him to last night) we have been talking about (eventually) trying some of those things.
      So, with that in mind; PAV:
      My husband is the only man I have ever had sex with as well. And while I sincerely hope you are not having to face my situation, I think that if you can start at least talking about the idea of a threesome (I’m with Mo here), even if you never end up doing it, it could help open the doorway to conversations about your sexual desires, and his. I have often wondered if I’m really any good at sex since I have only been with one person, and just because he reassures me that I’m good doesn’t always feel real because I’m self conscious of it.
      And while I cannot speak to California, I have lived in northern COlorado, and now live in Tacoma which is south of Seattle… Besides the fact that I have family and childhood friends here, you can’t deny the oceans, the mountains, the rainforest…. it’s all here. It can take a year or two to adjust to the winters, but they never get super frigid and the summer’s don’t leave you with feeling like you’re being roasted over a fire. I love the tepid environemnt and the green. I found COlorado too extreme of weather nad too brown for my sanity. Hope it helps!
      Oh, and Alex, you say you live in Seattle? I don’t really have any ALI friends out here, maybe we could grab coffee or something?

      • alexmmr September 9, 2011 at 20:34 #

        Click on my name and it will take you to my blog. At the top of my blog is a “Contact Alex” page which will give you my email address. Drop me a line and we’ll get caffeinated.

  8. me0me September 9, 2011 at 17:06 #

    Great job MO!

    Kristin- Just a thought, no idea if this is applicable or not, but when I read your situation I had an inner voice ask ‘why not stay in place a little longer?’
    When I thought it out, I got to- better to have your parents close by for the first baby’s first year, especially if life can be planned out to move afterwards (and I tend to Seattle, like most here. New Yorker myself, think everyone should be here because it’s the best place in the world, but hey you didn’t mention NY 🙂 )

    BT- Try to create a safe space and time to communicate with honesty and real listening. I would bet that neither of you knows exactly what you feel right now- and you can help each other understand, because it sounds like there’s a very deep friendship as the basis of your relationship. Listen to each other and don’t be afraid of finding the next step that will be the best one for you both, whatever it may be. I believe that that’s the only way to grow and be good to yourselves.

  9. Marie September 9, 2011 at 18:58 #

    PAV – Sexually, you’re only missing out on as much as you believe you are missing out on. If the sex you’re having with your boyfriend is good (and you don’t need a ton of partners to form a basis for comparison; trust me, if the sex was bad, you would KNOW), then you’re probably not actually missing out on anything. Remember that “casual” sex is rarely casual – there’s a lot of heartache, drama, and one-sided attachments that can come with it. But if this regret is something that’s going to eat away at you, it’s also going to slowly erode your relationship: you may become fixated on the idea, which would take your attention away from the sex you ARE having with your boyfriend, or you may end up resenting your boyfriend for shooting down your suggestion of opening the relationship. You can drop the idea of the threesome and see how he reacts, but if it’s not favorably, you have to let it go for now. Maybe down the road, he’ll change his mind; maybe, though, he won’t. When my boyfriend & I first got together, I had just gotten out of a marriage and was feeling like I’d missed out on some key sexual experiences (though I had had partners before my ex-husband). My boyfriend was all for the idea of threesomes, but we wanted to give ourselves some time, wait until we were secure in our own relationship first, and guess what? No threesomes ever happened. HE changed HIS mind. And yes, I have moments of what-the-fuck about it, but the fact is that the sex we have is great, and it’s real, and it’s not worth trading in for the sex I’ve only wondered about. Hopefully you can learn to be at peace with your relationship and your sexual history as it is right now. And if you can’t, then I’m sorry, but it may be better to end the relationship than to bring a cocktail of regret and resentment into it.

    Kristen – Don’t go back to Santa Barbara. I went to school there and loved it, but even now, when I go back to visit, I’m keenly aware that there is nothing long-term there. It’s still mostly students and old rich people, and I am neither. Neither are you, and you have the additional trauma trigger associated with the place. I don’t really have anything to add to what everyone else has said here (you’ll want to be by a support system when the little ones come, Seattle is awesome but dark and gloomy for most of the year, etc). What I will say, though, is that if none of these places is standing out as a front-runner, if you & your husband don’t think about one of them in particular and say, “This is where we belong,” then you may want to give yourselves some time to keep looking. When it comes to decision making, there are certain things you just KNOW are right if you listen to your heart/gut/inner voice: relationships, colleges, cities, jobs. Give yourself the luxury of the time you have (nine whole months!), and wait for something to speak to you.

    BT – You’ve gotten my opinion on a lot of this already. But one thing that jumps out at me here is what Mo said: it’s been 8 years and the sex has never been great. (Note to PAV: see? If it wasn’t good, you would KNOW, even without the basis for comparison.) Although sexual compatibility isn’t the only factor in a healthy marriage, it is kind of a big one. Sex should be at its best at the start of a relationship; things level off or calm down over time, but the memories of that initial, can’t-keep-your-hands-off-each-other stage fuel our drive to keep reaching, and even in committed, long-term relationships, there are phases/cycles of peak sexuality. (Brad Paisley & Carrie Underwood have an awesome song, “Remind Me,” out right now that’s about this exact thing.) But if you never had that honeymoon phase to begin with, you are fighting an uphill battle in your sex life. You know you want more/better sex with your husband, but you don’t necessarily know what that should look like. This was the exact story of my marriage, actually. We weren’t sexually compatible, but then again, we didn’t have sex before we got married. We did everything else, and it was mediocre at best. He wanted to do things I didn’t want to do, and vice versa. He didn’t know how to turn me on when I wasn’t feeling it; he didn’t even know how to confidently proposition me. We kept telling ourselves that once we got married and started having intercourse, things would be different, but in the end, they weren’t. In one of our huge fights before we called it quits, I told him the very hurtful truth: that if we had had sex before getting married, we wouldn’t have gotten married. So believe me when I tell you this shit is important and not something to be downplayed. That being said, I’m not telling you your marriage is doomed – my ex and I had scores of other problems as well. I just want you to know that sexual incompatibility can be a pretty big longterm issue, and that you may want to focus on that aspect of your relationship, rather than his infidelity that, it sounds like, may well have been just a one-time mistake.

    TLC Special – I do not hoard pee sticks. I also don’t see any problem with you hoarding pee sticks, but I’m not sure this collection is serving any purpose or helping you in any way. It may actually be really cathartic for you to take the whole lot and throw them away. Just sayin.

    • bodegabliss September 9, 2011 at 19:28 #

      BT – and to add to Marie’s above and mine below (hers wasn’t up before I started writing mine)…as I said below, it’s always been an issue between my husband and I, but I know we’re compatible, it’s just my issues that are holding us back. The rest of our relationship is rock solid, so I guess that should have been stated as well because I agree with what Marie said, that it’s a HUGE factor in a marriage and shouldn’t be downplayed and incompatibility can never be fixed, it can only get a little bit better. Even my therapist agrees our sex life can get better, we just need to work on what’s going on in my head.

  10. bodegabliss September 9, 2011 at 19:09 #

    Mo, you freaking rock. This is AWESOME!

    Kristin, can I put in a plug for Sonoma County? It’s close enough to San Francisco, and I know you used to live there and love it…and, well, you’ll already have a friend here. Just saying! But if that doesn’t pull you (and I honestly don’t understand why it wouldn’t! I’m awesome – I mean – San Francisco is awesome!), I think you should stay close to family. I’ve lived here now for 5 years and my family is back east and I miss them ALL THE TIME. And when I think about if I actually ever have a baby, it’s going to be so hard not to have that support around. My sister has two sons and my parents live right down the road from them, and I’m constantly envious that her kids get to grow up with my parents in their lives every day. My kids will be lucky if they see them once a year. And also, I know you’re in a different place at this time as you were when you tried to live there last time, but I worry Seattle will make you sad again. You know what WOULD make you happy? Sonoma County. Just saying.

    Bleeding Tulip, I’m wondering if you’ve thought about sex therapy in addition to counseling? I might have to disagree with Mo on this one (sorry lady, I hate doing that cause we’re usually same-same), but I think there’s still hope for your sex life, even though it’s never been hot and heavy. My husband and I have always struggled to have a healthy relationship in this department, and he has even said at one point that he’d be open to going to a sex therapist, and I think it’s a good idea. And may I also say, I’m completely impressed you are trying to forgive him….I just don’t know if I could do that!

    PAV – I’m not sure if this will help you or not, but I wish I had had sex with more people before I got married….and I had sex with plenty!

    alexmmr — I’m with you, I love giving advice no one asked me for! 🙂 hehe.

    • bodegabliss September 9, 2011 at 19:11 #

      (If you move here, I promise to spell you name right, KristEn. Oops! I’m blaming it on my friend who spells her name with an “i.”)

  11. Kristen September 11, 2011 at 23:44 #

    Thanks, Mo, for doing this…this is so awesome! And thanks to you and the group for your input re: my moving…EXTREMELY helpful to have everyone’s insight! 🙂
    XOXO

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